Not sure why, after quite a few miles on the clock in 2014 and not changing either bike's set up, I am having a number of issues with bike set-up, pain in the L upper calf, and not entirely sure why?
Is anyone a bit o' a wiz where bike set up is concerned?
i would suggest a bike fit. many people have over knee pain from having a bike fit...for sure that it would solve your pains. worst case scenario you have your bike set up perfectly and you have to see a physio.
I had one, paid over £200. That was two yrs ago. Perhaps three?
No issues since.... 'Til this mid October.
Now, I am struggling to explain what has changed. Since May I have clocked up 5800 miles, and now I am seeking some solution as it's frustrating the Hell out of me!
Plus my Southern Tier ride, San Diago riding due east starts soon.
I was talking to my friend who is a Cyclefit bike fitter, and I learned, interestingly, that there is no 'definitive' bike fit. Your body measurements are only half of the picture. You can come out of a bike fit in two completely different positions based simply on what you tell them you want to get out of riding.
Perhaps that side of things has changed, since your last fit?
Not sure it is the fit Tim. Simply put you may be doing more miles than your body can stand. The loads you are carrying require major power especially on the long hill hauls. I suspect your issues stem from Glutes to T.I. band and then Calf. Do you religiously stretch all these and your hip flexors after a long ride. Did you when doing the round Britain ride? Could be residual backlash and no answer but to ease off and get some serious massage from lower back right through to calves. It's not all about the miles. Proper warm down and stretching are just as important as the miles. If you don't return the muscles to a more relaxed state after stress they progressively shorten with the contraction and retention of lactic acid. The shortened state means higher leverage on the joints resulting in hip, lower back and knee pain. The stress is always on the muscle, ligament to anchorage points. Your calf pain is a precursor to a more serious condition so go get it massaged out. You might also find the fibula is locked and not able to rotate so an oateopath could free this up and improve your mobility. It's not ALL about the bike Tim.
I had a bike fit a couple of seasons ago, couldn't get used to the position, so adjusted everything myself. What a waste of money! Since them, I've been of the 'comfort is everything' school of thought, however I came across this review online:
I replaced the SPD cleats, and eased them forward a smidgen on the shoe. This seemed to create a tightness along the side of the left quad (IT band?). 1:20 into the ride, same L calf pains.
Dropped the saddle 1mm. Seemed to help. Then some discomfort in the R calf! Will return the cleats to their original position as my R quads in particular ached in places they've never ached before post ride.
Will try again today. Walking (3hrs) on non-cycling days plus foam rolling several times a day. Ouch!
PS - downloaded that app and will give it a whirl later and report back my findings.
don't think so stiggers...........the central body of the cleats should align with an imaginary line which starts from the centre of the large toeball across the foot at right angles to the natural alignment of the foot when at rest. Some peoples feet are straight front, some turned out and some turned in. This is where the maximum thrust occurs and if the cleat approximates to the natural lie of the foot then when padalling the action causes the least stress to other muscles. If your foot is held in an artificial alignment it will only exacerbate problems. Some cleats have no float and some have a large degree. Whichever you use the cleats should still be properly positioned.
Geoff makes some excellent points - pushing your body too hard. Are you a spinner or a big gear chugger? Pushing a big gear with a loaded bike could be the source of the problem? Did you build up to long touring rides or jump straight into it?
There are some good suggestions above including stretching. I've always used the Lemond method for saddle height as a starting point and tweaked to get the right feel. For cleats I align so that the ball of my foot is roughly over the pedal axle. Always use cleats with lots of float which compensate for the natural movement of the foot. Getting the right width of saddle is important so get your sit bones measured. I try and move around on the bike including getting out of the saddle to climb and accelerate. Try to ride different bikes (eg MTB and road) to mix up how your body responds to cycling.
Good luck with it and hope you get it sorted soon.
As little float as possible is the best for most I was told, and I have to agree with this. Keo cleats have a very slight float (4.5 degrees) less than the SPD / Shimano 520 pedals.
I have, today, ordered new pedals, cleats, & shoes.If you know what my Shimano mtn bike shoes look like, you'd nod sagely!
2 months club riding on the road bike (April & May), 5 months touring (touring bike), no issues. 1 month back on the road bike (October), issue with calf muscle surfaces. Switched back to the touring bike in November onwards.
I suspect whatever issue I have, it has been compounded by the hours of riding, maybe exacerbating a slight strained muscle, regardless that the touring bike may well be a good setup, I may simply be not allowing sufficient recovery of the calf muscle (?).
Will again try the touring bike, cleats back from whence they came Tuesday. After the phone app / turbo set up (never got the opportunity today) & let you know both how that iPhone app works and any changes I might make.
The Brooks B17 sags and needs tightening / stretching forward a little over time, thus raising the effective seat hight, which may be a factor. It's 3,000 miles worn-in now.
Time pedals are also very good Tim. But guess a change is too late. I have a set of pedals and cleats you can try sometime. The wire clip gives more play and the wide pedal gives really good spread so the load isn't too centred.
New shoes, new pedals, new cleats. All new, but the same.
Had a physiotherapist come over and spent two hours working my legs yesterday.
Strictly speaking there is a preliminary chat about previous experience training injuries and such like including a good look at one's posture and gate, looking at shoe-wear, foot position and so on.
I know that my hamstrings are quite shortened, I still cannot touch my toes, and then she got to work on me.Ouch!
She did think that the problem in my left calf muscle might well be symptomatic of an error somewhere else, though with the exception of one relatively small muscle deep within the left buttock, this proved not to be the case and that the areas that she thought would be tender and sore, some of which are the joins between the tendons and the muscles or the tendon & the bone, particularly in certain areas, proved not to be the case.
The IT band was clear as was the sciatic nerve and the back of the knee, shoulders, lower back too.
However it became quite obvious that the right calf muscle was exhibiting precisely the same soreness and constriction that the left muscle is displaying which surprised me since it had not previously shown its hand. It's the outside muscle / part of the calf muscle.
I slowly am coming to the conclusion that until my hamstrings are stretched out better and the calf muscle has stopped hurting, I should park the bike up and see if time might help, along with a 10 mile walk each day.
The culprit? My saddle? It's clear from the indentations that I sit lower and heavier on my L side, maybe even a little skewed (?) something the leather saddle amply demonstrates, it's slight be it's visible so I'll chop that out for a standard saddle and see if that helps.
Beyond that, calf exercises, foam rollers, some more massage, some IT rolling too - but happy to hear what others might have to add.
good Tim. However, I still think you need to get back to basics. See an osteopath first. If the skeletal structure is out of alignment...nearly everyones is at some time or other, then massage and stretching are window dressing. If your chassis was bent you would straighten it, if the wheels didn't track you would adjust them. It's the same with the skeleton. Get the bones (mechanics) sorted first, then do the rest. Physios don't really do the trick...it's not their thing. It's not a one stop visit either. The older you are the more chronic the condition is likely to be. Muscles have a memory, and if they have been pulling and correcting for any slight or major misalignment for years they will tend to revert back to their set condition after a session. A few are needed to reprogramme them not to go back to their old ways.
They do not stretch downwards plus they are hanging a long way forward, suggesting he is tipped fwd somewhat. Mine hang down but are a little fwd coming around slightly from the side of my hips, something the "Body Mechanical Therapist" - to give her title correctly - noted with me.
Once she had me I an upright position, hands-on, in a position with "soft knees" tummy in, chest out, head upright, I could not go up onto my toes, rising vertically through a single vertical plane. I pitch fwd slightly. I had never done this exercise before, why would I? No one had ever been critical of my vertical stance. Very odd!
Also, on his return walk, once he is reminded of the need to be vertical and look fwd, the exercise clearly changes, and looks to be doing what it sets out to do. I have added that to my 2x a day routine now.
just to say Tim...Chiro NOT the ame as Osteopath. I know your person is across the disciplines and if you feel comfortable then they are right for you. My Osteo's practice does the business for me and some others in the club but I can't stress too strongly the need for athletes of whatever discipline to take care of the skeletal alignment. If anything is out of kilter even slightly then everything they do to improve fitness, add muscle or build endurance is compromised. The body is a miraculous machine which self corrects for injuries and strains. This means that when you pull something out of alignment the muscles correct for this by contracting on the opposite side. As they correct progressively they need to stay in contraction to keep your physique in some semblance of balance. This means they stay slightly shortened and apply an element of permanent stress to their anchorages on the joints through the ligaments and tendons and consume energy 24/7 to keep you working. This condition becomes chronic and progressive over time. Stretching CANNOT correct as the skeletal structure is out of its correct alignment. It is purely mechanical, and the sooner it is corrected then the more likely you are to improve. Osteopaths specialise in these mechanics. Physio's and to a lesser extent Chiro's do not deal specifically with this area. Limbering exercises, stretches and massage can't sort it. They can help after correction to keep you supple and toned. Good luck Tim and anyone else out there who may feel they need a second opinion.
I have an 'phone appt with one of the bike fitting physio's from Team Sky, then waiting on a date if this is something they can help with.
I've emailed the physical errors I am experiencing to him and will speak tomorrow.
No one's body is aligned / entirely symmetrical, as you say, but my priority is getting fit then fathom out what went wrong, or they may have some answers when I see him / them. I am sure they might be able to tell me more when I go and see them.
"No one's body is aligned / entirely symmetrical, as you say" Not exactly what I wrote Tim. We all pull muscles or overwork weaker sets and as a result the skeletal structure gets misaligned. This can be corrected so that you are back to normal. II worked for 30 years with very heavy materials and put too much stress on my lower back. As a result have a permanent tendency to spasm there and apart from being extremely painful always needs correcting so I have used my Osteopath for over 20 years on a regular 3 monthly visit to keep me working. I look on it like an MOT and purely mechanical. Misuse and repetetive exercise without proper stretching and correction on a regular timetable will inevitably leave you with a chronic condition which gets harder to alter the longer you leave it. If your priority is to get fit surely this depends on what you mean by fit. If something is out of kilter then all the training and exercise in the world are only heaping stress on already stressed parts.
No training aside from walking, stretching, rollers. I have a calf strain so I need to be off the bike 'Til the strain subsides.
A set of physio exercises each day, done on the living room floor.
I have had a vast amount of angles, lengths, and such like taken of the body, no obvious culprit as yet. This has been done 2x before, so for the time being I am resting up the cycling. The Pennine Physiotherapy clinic is emailing me all the figures today & we'll check to see if there are any changes. This may give some insight too.
I had an appointment with PhysioFixx . Run by Robert Grainger MSc MCSP MHPC CSCS, a Chartered Physiotherapist & former lead physiotherapist for the Team Sky and former physiotherapist to the Great Britain Cycling Team. It became clear that he knew exactly what was going on with the problems that I have been experiencing lately.
The upshot of this is that my theory that swapping my old saddle for a new leather Brooks B17 part way through my 6000 mile ride may well have tipped the balance in what was an underlying condition.I can now safely blame my parents for these issues.
The problem actually stems from my feet which is not something I had anticipated.They dont hurt and I walk 10 miles each day when off the bike.
Because of the position that my feet are naturally adopting, and Im now informed they apparently turn upwards and inwards (news to me!) my body is automatically compensating in order to flatten my feet out into a more normal position so that I can balance and walk correctly and this compensation has, overtime, led to a shortening of my hamstrings and also pretty much all the internal muscles in both buttocks.
A particular tight L buttock muscle has also possibly lead to a more limited flex in my L hip as well which accounts for the unusual sit-bone indentations in the leather saddle.
On the bicycle what may have happened is that the new saddle was a smidgen too high (1mm even) and that at some point I have overextended on my left side, possibly tearing, ever so slightly, the L calf muscle, further hampered by the lack of flex in the L pelvic muscle.
The theory is that in time this would've happened either on my left side all my right side because I am generating an almost twisting action in the outer portion of the calf muscles as part of the compensation that my body is making for my feet.
Next step: I am going to have some bespoke footbed inserts manufactured in the next three weeks which will help and in the meantime because the various muscles in the buttocks and both hamstrings are so truncated I have a great deal of pain to go through both in the physio sessions and on the foam rollers & tennis balls (a more targeted and intense, deeper muscle massage than the rollers permit) in my own time with the end result,hopefully, being that the muscles can be elongated.
I'm also going to be given a series of strengthening exercise especially for the buttock region next week on my return visit.
Injury:With a suspected tear in the left calf muscle this could effectively seal my fate as a cyclist but only in time perhaps will I know more.
Ill put them up on line in a DropBox link once I get them next week.
Comments
worst case scenario you have your bike set up perfectly and you have to see a physio.
That was two yrs ago. Perhaps three?
No issues since.... 'Til this mid October.
Now, I am struggling to explain what has changed. Since May I have clocked up 5800 miles, and now I am seeking some solution as it's frustrating the Hell out of me!
Plus my Southern Tier ride, San Diago riding due east starts soon.
Perhaps that side of things has changed, since your last fit?
Food for thought
n
It's not ALL about the bike Tim.
Too many Glenlivets!
Will expand and expand more in the 'morrow
Since them, I've been of the 'comfort is everything' school of thought, however I came across this review online:
http://www.dcrainmaker.com/2013/10/automated-measurement-review.html
I downloaded the app (£2.69 I think) and will give it a go soon.
If this doesn't float yer boat, dcrainmaker's still a decent source of info.
I replaced the SPD cleats, and eased them forward a smidgen on the shoe.
This seemed to create a tightness along the side of the left quad (IT band?).
1:20 into the ride, same L calf pains.
Dropped the saddle 1mm. Seemed to help. Then some discomfort in the R calf!
Will return the cleats to their original position as my R quads in particular ached in places they've never ached before post ride.
Will try again today.
Walking (3hrs) on non-cycling days plus foam rolling several times a day. Ouch!
PS - downloaded that app and will give it a whirl later and report back my findings.
If your foot is held in an artificial alignment it will only exacerbate problems. Some cleats have no float and some have a large degree. Whichever you use the cleats should still be properly positioned.
There are some good suggestions above including stretching. I've always used the Lemond method for saddle height as a starting point and tweaked to get the right feel. For cleats I align so that the ball of my foot is roughly over the pedal axle. Always use cleats with lots of float which compensate for the natural movement of the foot. Getting the right width of saddle is important so get your sit bones measured. I try and move around on the bike including getting out of the saddle to climb and accelerate. Try to ride different bikes (eg MTB and road) to mix up how your body responds to cycling.
Good luck with it and hope you get it sorted soon.
I have, today, ordered new pedals, cleats, & shoes.If you know what my Shimano mtn bike shoes look like, you'd nod sagely!
2 months club riding on the road bike (April & May), 5 months touring (touring bike), no issues.
1 month back on the road bike (October), issue with calf muscle surfaces.
Switched back to the touring bike in November onwards.
I suspect whatever issue I have, it has been compounded by the hours of riding, maybe exacerbating a slight strained muscle, regardless that the touring bike may well be a good setup, I may simply be not allowing sufficient recovery of the calf muscle (?).
Will again try the touring bike, cleats back from whence they came Tuesday. After the phone app / turbo set up (never got the opportunity today) & let you know both how that iPhone app works and any changes I might make.
The Brooks B17 sags and needs tightening / stretching forward a little over time, thus raising the effective seat hight, which may be a factor. It's 3,000 miles worn-in now.
Had a physiotherapist come over and spent two hours working my legs yesterday.
Strictly speaking there is a preliminary chat about previous experience training injuries and such like including a good look at one's posture and gate, looking at shoe-wear, foot position and so on.
I know that my hamstrings are quite shortened, I still cannot touch my toes, and then she got to work on me.Ouch!
She did think that the problem in my left calf muscle might well be symptomatic of an error somewhere else, though with the exception of one relatively small muscle deep within the left buttock, this proved not to be the case and that the areas that she thought would be tender and sore, some of which are the joins between the tendons and the muscles or the tendon & the bone, particularly in certain areas, proved not to be the case.
The IT band was clear as was the sciatic nerve and the back of the knee, shoulders, lower back too.
However it became quite obvious that the right calf muscle was exhibiting precisely the same soreness and constriction that the left muscle is displaying which surprised me since it had not previously shown its hand. It's the outside muscle / part of the calf muscle.
I slowly am coming to the conclusion that until my hamstrings are stretched out better and the calf muscle has stopped hurting, I should park the bike up and see if time might help, along with a 10 mile walk each day.
The culprit? My saddle? It's clear from the indentations that I sit lower and heavier on my L side, maybe even a little skewed (?) something the leather saddle amply demonstrates, it's slight be it's visible so I'll chop that out for a standard saddle and see if that helps.
Beyond that, calf exercises, foam rollers, some more massage, some IT rolling too - but happy to hear what others might have to add.
IAM cycling
and some more garmin
hamstrings are forever tighting as you never fully extend your leg on a cycle revolution so i stretch those the most
They do not stretch downwards plus they are hanging a long way forward, suggesting he is tipped fwd somewhat.
Mine hang down but are a little fwd coming around slightly from the side of my hips, something the "Body Mechanical Therapist" - to give her title correctly - noted with me.
Once she had me I an upright position, hands-on, in a position with "soft knees" tummy in, chest out, head upright, I could not go up onto my toes, rising vertically through a single vertical plane. I pitch fwd slightly. I had never done this exercise before, why would I? No one had ever been critical of my vertical stance. Very odd!
Also, on his return walk, once he is reminded of the need to be vertical and look fwd, the exercise clearly changes, and looks to be doing what it sets out to do. I have added that to my 2x a day routine now.
Went to a chiropractor this pm, measurements and alignments, lots of pushing against and resistance and as much R side as L side.
A slightly confusing picture for me personally, and ultimately no real reason why the calf strain happened, but it is strained.
R mid buttock v tender. Roller is absolute agony !
I have some exercises to get on with, lower 2 vertebra were tight, and will see her again before my departure for the US.
It is purely mechanical, and the sooner it is corrected then the more likely you are to improve. Osteopaths specialise in these mechanics. Physio's and to a lesser extent Chiro's do not deal specifically with this area. Limbering exercises, stretches and massage can't sort it. They can help after correction to keep you supple and toned.
Good luck Tim and anyone else out there who may feel they need a second opinion.
I've emailed the physical errors I am experiencing to him and will speak tomorrow.
No one's body is aligned / entirely symmetrical, as you say, but my priority is getting fit then fathom out what went wrong, or they may have some answers when I see him / them. I am sure they might be able to tell me more when I go and see them.
We all pull muscles or overwork weaker sets and as a result the skeletal structure gets misaligned. This can be corrected so that you are back to normal.
II worked for 30 years with very heavy materials and put too much stress on my lower back. As a result have a permanent tendency to spasm there and apart from being extremely painful always needs correcting so I have used my Osteopath for over 20 years on a regular 3 monthly visit to keep me working. I look on it like an MOT and purely mechanical.
Misuse and repetetive exercise without proper stretching and correction on a regular timetable will inevitably leave you with a chronic condition which gets harder to alter the longer you leave it.
If your priority is to get fit surely this depends on what you mean by fit. If something is out of kilter then all the training and exercise in the world are only heaping stress on already stressed parts.
I have a calf strain so I need to be off the bike 'Til the strain subsides.
A set of physio exercises each day, done on the living room floor.
I have had a vast amount of angles, lengths, and such like taken of the body, no obvious culprit as yet. This has been done 2x before, so for the time being I am resting up the cycling. The Pennine Physiotherapy clinic is emailing me all the figures today & we'll check to see if there are any changes. This may give some insight too.
I had an appointment with PhysioFixx .
Run by Robert Grainger MSc MCSP MHPC CSCS, a Chartered Physiotherapist & former lead physiotherapist for the Team Sky and former physiotherapist to the Great Britain Cycling Team. It became clear that he knew exactly what was going on with the problems that I have been experiencing lately.
The upshot of this is that my theory that swapping my old saddle for a new leather Brooks B17 part way through my 6000 mile ride may well have tipped the balance in what was an underlying condition.I can now safely blame my parents for these issues.
The problem actually stems from my feet which is not something I had anticipated.They dont hurt and I walk 10 miles each day when off the bike.
Because of the position that my feet are naturally adopting, and Im now informed they apparently turn upwards and inwards (news to me!) my body is automatically compensating in order to flatten my feet out into a more normal position so that I can balance and walk correctly and this compensation has, overtime, led to a shortening of my hamstrings and also pretty much all the internal muscles in both buttocks.
A particular tight L buttock muscle has also possibly lead to a more limited flex in my L hip as well which accounts for the unusual sit-bone indentations in the leather saddle.
On the bicycle what may have happened is that the new saddle was a smidgen too high (1mm even) and that at some point I have overextended on my left side, possibly tearing, ever so slightly, the L calf muscle, further hampered by the lack of flex in the L pelvic muscle.
The theory is that in time this would've happened either on my left side all my right side because I am generating an almost twisting action in the outer portion of the calf muscles as part of the compensation that my body is making for my feet.
Next step: I am going to have some bespoke footbed inserts manufactured in the next three weeks which will help and in the meantime because the various muscles in the buttocks and both hamstrings are so truncated I have a great deal of pain to go through both in the physio sessions and on the foam rollers & tennis balls (a more targeted and intense, deeper muscle massage than the rollers permit) in my own time with the end result,hopefully, being that the muscles can be elongated.
I'm also going to be given a series of strengthening exercise especially for the buttock region next week on my return visit.
Injury:With a suspected tear in the left calf muscle this could effectively seal my fate as a cyclist but only in time perhaps will I know more.
Ill put them up on line in a DropBox link once I get them next week.