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CX tyres
Hello CCA!
I write this post sat by the Sue Ryder Home at Stagenhoe waiting for a taxi to take me home after my front tyre pinch punctured twice and then my Park tool “super patches” did nothing they said they’d do. Not quite sure where their marketing strategy came from there. Stopping air coming out of an inner tube is something they certainly can’t do.
I’ve been commuting off road of recent a little to and from wheathampstead and am enjoying the dry, stony and lumpy woodland tracks around here mostly on my mountain bike but today decided to ride my CX bike as it’s still dry.
2 things:
1: they’re clinchers and I am running vaguely new 33mm Specialized Terra Pros. Are they a bit rubbish? Conti cross inners... slime in the first puncture (made no difference) and no slime in the spare inner. Obvs. I’ve punctured on all but 1 ride I’ve done on this bike.
2: I know this is a long subject, but was running them at around 50psi for mainly gravel tracks with a few big lumps and potholes chucked in a wise idea?
Advice would be welcome. I hate punctures.
I was thinking maybe a bigger volume tyre to replace them, there’s space for wider...
Many thanks!
Will
I write this post sat by the Sue Ryder Home at Stagenhoe waiting for a taxi to take me home after my front tyre pinch punctured twice and then my Park tool “super patches” did nothing they said they’d do. Not quite sure where their marketing strategy came from there. Stopping air coming out of an inner tube is something they certainly can’t do.
I’ve been commuting off road of recent a little to and from wheathampstead and am enjoying the dry, stony and lumpy woodland tracks around here mostly on my mountain bike but today decided to ride my CX bike as it’s still dry.
2 things:
1: they’re clinchers and I am running vaguely new 33mm Specialized Terra Pros. Are they a bit rubbish? Conti cross inners... slime in the first puncture (made no difference) and no slime in the spare inner. Obvs. I’ve punctured on all but 1 ride I’ve done on this bike.
2: I know this is a long subject, but was running them at around 50psi for mainly gravel tracks with a few big lumps and potholes chucked in a wise idea?
Advice would be welcome. I hate punctures.
I was thinking maybe a bigger volume tyre to replace them, there’s space for wider...
Many thanks!
Will
Comments
My two penneth.
I recently put some large volume tyres on my cross bike for exactly the sort of terrain you are on and it was a revelation. Tons more comfort and confidence without feeling any slower. Can't say if it helped reduce punctures as I only did a few rides and one was set up tubeless (more of which later) Ben and Daniel have been using large volume tyres for a while so could advise on puncture resistance
Tubeless is worth it if you have tubeless ready tyres and rims. Whilst not being totally puncture proof it takes a real hammering for them to pinch puncture. I have only ever had one pinch and that was during Gritfest where I was absolutely hammering it over really rough terrain with no care for picking lines.
Failing either of these, I have always found latex tubes to be more resistant to pinch punctures. Others I'm absolutely sure will disagree.
I think the Terra Pros are supposed to be a good tyre, maybe too good and a bit racey so not hard wearing? 50 psi is also plenty.
I think if I found myself in similar circumstances I would be tempted to eat the self-adhesive patch. This would, of course, not fix the puncture but would, no doubt, induce chronic stomach ache and perhaps vomiting – both of which would distract me from having a deflated tyre.
Self-adhesive patches are best left in the little box you get them in. They don’t fix punctures and cannot be peeled off to then properly fix the tube with traditional, and functional, rubber solution glue and a patch. I recommend a saddlebag, unfashionably large enough, to carry a spare tube. Enjoy the simple pleasure of repairing the punctured tube in the comfort of your home at a later date and feel the satisfaction of making a good repair and being environmental.
In addition to the qualities Phil mentions about Schwalbe Landcruisers are also very stiff and very heavy. Ask Richard about how puncture proof they are or are not. These tyres have a large band of stiff rubber moulded into the tyre below the tread to inhibit the ingress of foreign objects. I understand this is made from recycled rubber, which is a good thing. The downside of this armour approach is on subtleness (handling and grip) and weight.
Tubeless tyres (generally) take a different approach to dealing with material which could cause a puncture – and that is not to use (a lot of) armour to prevent it from piercing the tyre, but rather have a mechanism to seal any punctures which do occur. This mechanism is the latex sealant poured into the tyre. In the event of a puncture this floods out through the hole and particles in the fluid build-up and block the aperture. The latex element of the fluid then dries to complete the job. This can be so effective that you don’t even notice you’ve had a puncture. Other times you need to add more air. Sometimes the hole is too big and you have a complete deflation; in this case you need to put in your spare inner tube. The efficacy of the sealants vary; I have had good experience with Orange Seal (black label).
I think it is worth mentioning that I have had best experience with tubeless tyres of 28mm thread and bigger. 25mm tyres can work okay, but with a comparatively small volume of air they can deflate before the latex solution does its job. So big tyres work well tubeless especially as you don’t want to run at super high pressures – as this will blow out all the sealant.
No inner tube, flexible casing and lower pressures gives a really great ride, handling and braking properties.
Cross country I have been enjoying using 38mm tyres. So I recommend something in the 40mm region at about 2 bar (30 PSI). Remember to make sure your frame can cope with these big tyres though.
Just to be clear – don’t eat patches.
Tubeless seems like a bit of a big step at the moment, I don’t think my wheels are tubeless compatible too, which is an expensive faff and have heard similar stories to what Shelton said from others too. Maybe if I was taking my CX riding more seriously than bombing around the lanes for fun...
Too late with the advice Shelton, I already have some baggies. You’ll see me riding around with full body armour on next although I do feel that I’ll never really understand what the word “gnarly” means or have the ability to do anything “rad”. As for my “mad skillz”... If they include looking like I’m about to cry whilst heading down a rocky downhill track with the complete sensation of lack of control, then I’ve pretty much got them nailed.
https://mbr.co.uk/news/the-complete-mountain-bike-slang-dictionary-334197
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/prime-peloton-v2-disc-road-wheelset-2018/rp-prod172654 .
You can also buy a kit to make a non tubeless set of wheels tubeless ready, and they work.
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/stans-no-tubes-cyclocross-tubeless-kit-700c/rp-prod38840
Then for the dry weather, WTB Nano 40c tubeless ready tyres at a nice low pressure (i dont go over 30psi) and they are brilliant!
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/wtb-nano-tcs-light-fast-rolling-cx-tyre/rp-prod135614
For CX racing im using Challenge Open clinchers with latex tubes but thats only for ease of being able to change tyres quickly and easily for changing weather conditions. I wouldn't use normal tubes or latex tubes for general xc riding as there are just way too many thorns and other sharp objects to riddle you with punctures and ruin your ride.
When i took my WTB Nano tyres off a few weeks ago, that were set up tubeless, i found 4 thorns in my rear tyre!! but they sealed with the thorns in and never went down.
Sort of related to this thread from last year, I thought I'd give you all some feedback on my experiment with a tubeless road set up. If you're a fan, you may want to look away now!
I'm a bit of a luddite with most things, but when I bought a new summer bike for a recent "big" birthday, having read up about some of the pros and cons, I took up the offer to have the tyres set up tubeless. I went with Schwalbe Pro Ones (expensive!) and I think they used Stan's tyre sealant inside. My initial impression was fantastically positive. These things were light, quick and supple; just loved them. I didn't get a puncture all Summer, so they seemed pretty impervious and they retained pressure just as well as, if not better than, butyl inners. And checking the tread, the only things I saw were the very occasional small area of "damp" where the sealant had done its thing. So there I was pootling about with a small back pocket pump, a canister of CO2 and an emergency inner tube.
The first sign of things going awry was on the Wells trip. Somewhere along the line I got a puncture, which was spotted by someone behind as bubbles as I went through some puddles. The ride-feel got a little sloppy but I was still going so the tubless/sealant had done its job, right? When someone got an inner tube puncture later on on the ride, I took the opportunity to top up the air with CO2. Ooops. The air came back out of the hole in the tread with no sealant in site. I got the impression that it'd returned to the same level of air in the tyre as when I'd started, at the cost of a cannister. Anyhow, it got me to Kings Lynn and home, so AOK.
By then, however, I'd ordered some bits to set my Winter wheels up tubeless. And it's not a cheap operation. I also found some advice on how to cope with punctures: superglue - check; strange waxed string and small fork-shaped applicator (yawhat? More on that later) - check; presta valve key - check; sachet of additional latex fluid - check etc. My toolbag took on a completely different composition, as you can tell.
OK, back to the fallout from the Wells trip. When I came to take the tyre off the rim, I got a shock. Aside from all the expected gunk - there was a little - all of the latex had coagulated in a line around the inside of the tyre. Puzzling over this, I found some discussion on the compatibility of the latex fluid and CO2. Not all fluids are the same, but I couldn't find many fans of Stan's sealant + CO2 online. But I had bought something else called "Caffeelatex" to carry around. However, buried on their website was a warning that the sudden cold shock from a CO2 canister inflation could cause the latex to react and solidify. They recommended adding CO2 slowly and to allow the gas to warm up in between "toots". Highly practical!
So by then the Summer bike was going away and I decided to revisit the issue in 2019. But now I was off to ride Road Bikes on Track (ROBOT) at Welwyn in the Autumn and with my new Winter set up - also tubeless. If you know anything about Welwyn track, its that it can be v. cold (as a bowl, it seems to collect cold air) and if it rains at all, the flints are a menace. During a debrief between sessions, I realised that my forks and lower legs were splashed in latex fluid, so I turned the wheel so the puddle of sealant within the tyre had a chance to seal the hole and I carried on. It sealed, at lower pressure, so that was OK. But I've still got kit that is covered in specs of latex I doubt will ever come off. Cleaning the forks and bike was a b**ger as well and I bought a latex remover/solvent to get it done to my satisfaction.
By now I was having deeper misgivings, but this next episode put the nail in the coffin for me. Late Winter this year has been an odd one, with some glorious patches of weather and unexpected heat. One such day, off I went with a couple of guys I'd done the Chiltern 100 with last year to do a Tour of Stevenage. The other side of Ardeley and about 10 miles out, I punctured and it was a big enough puncture that I would need to do something radical. They watched on puzzled as I fished out the waxed string and small forked applicator tool (see above) and used the applicator to stuff the waxed string - I've seen them called "anchovies" - into the hole, just as I'd seen on the video. It took pressure again (from a pump) and so we were off. But 5 miles later, I got a similarly problematic puncture, but this time in the rear tyre. I was now sweating on the "anchovies" holding, but the road surfaces were not helping.
The route then took us up and over Sacombe Hill, just South of Dane End. If you know it, Sacombe Hill is really steep at the top with uneven road surface: going down the steep section, I took it gingerly. Just as I did, there was a "bang" and my front tyre went floppy. The "anchovy" had blown out leaving a bigger hole in the tyre wall than before. If I'd been doing any speed, I'd probably have had a big off.
So I was now about as far on our route as I could get from home. I broke out the inner tube hoping that a boot or patch could prevent the tube ballooning through the gap. But what's that? Valve ever so slightly too short for slightly deeper section rims to get a pump on?! Double b**ger. The lads who had puffed back up Sacombe Hill to help looked in their saddle bags but none of them had an inner tube with a valve stem long enough. Result? Day over. But at least it was sunny for the wait while Anne came to collect me after a grovelling phone call. My fault about the inner tube valve length, but I didn't have to get covered in latex fitting it.
Summary - I'm done with tubeless, for road at least. No pros use them, which should be a clue. If you put any faith in the not-tyre-manufacturer-recommended witchcraft of "anchovies", they're just not safe. Tubeless is great when there are no flints about and nice smooth roads to play on. The problem is that to hold air, the integrity of the tyre has to be nigh on 100% to keep the air in, whereas you can ride a tyre with a few holes in with an inner tube. The latex gets everywhere: either on you and your bike when the wheel is revolving or all over you as you fit an inner tube. And you sometimes won't know if the liquid has dried out or your CO2 has solidified until you puncture. Or you have to carry a big pump (how?) or get repetitive strain injury for 200 pumps for 70psi with a small, back pocket pump. I've seen some alternatives to latex, which seem to use fibre and gloop medium, but read poor reviews so didn't try it. The off-road boys talk about "slime", but that sounds like more mess to me. Suffice to say, I was happy where I was as a luddite, so now I'm back to my cardie and flat cap!
So if I haven't put you off yet(!), you're a true believer and you're happy to make a donation to charity, I'll let you have all the latex liquid and paraphernalia I still have cluttering up the place. You're welcome! :-)
I think there are a few pros riding tubeless, but never seen one hop off the bike and faff for 15 minutes repairing it.
I meant my piece to be provocative, so I'm glad you're taking me on :-)
I wasn't aware that some pros use them, perhaps UK-based pros? I'm not aware of any big European teams using them. Ms. Lewis who rode the TT last week and rides at Elite level in UK uses them, so I'll be asking her when I next see her.
Buried in my tirade is the fact that I was able to keep going on both the Wells trip and at ROBOT without stopping, although the ride went a bit skittish with low pressure. And the reason why I went with them on the Winter tyre set up was that I thought the tyres I was using had better puncture protection than they did, and I agree that it can be difficult changing tyres with frozen hands. They are meant to be safer, and didn't come off the rim when I punctured on Sacombe Hill.
The major problem I've seen with them is when you have a catastrophic puncture - and as I say, I think the things only work if you have near 100% integrity of the tyre. Then its no fun at all. I've given them a try, they're a pfaff, they're not for everyone and so not for me.
And for the techies, the website bicyclerollingresistance.com did a comparison of rolling resistance of thin wall butyl inner vs. tubeless and the butyl inner was lower (though fitness and weight loss would have a bigger effect...)
I mean what I say about a charitable donation. So if you're interested, I'll look the stuff out for you. :-)
Cheers.
For racing, more lightweight clinchers with latex tubes are great for me, they give you more time if you puncture so if it does go then you’ve got a few mins of riding on it before you have to go in straight lines which is handy if you’re in a bunch of riders. Don’t go super lightweight latex though as you’ll spend most of your time waiting for the service car. Michelin standard latex tubes are a bit thicker than the lightweight options and roll really well.
It’s a bike, you’re riding around the roads of the U.K., you’re going to puncture. Depends how much you like:
1: getting covered in latex and gunk (some people dig this, maybe not on the bike though)
2: replacing expensive tubs
These are purely my thoughts about road riding. Tough tyres don’t have to be heavy and feel awful to ride, try the bontrager AW3s or AW4s, they feel great (I used to race my early season and late season races on winter tyres too)! Nobody needs to ride at >100psi anymore. The pressure you run the tyre at will effect the feel more than whether it is 18g lighter than the less puncture resistant version. Plus, for training it really doesn’t matter. With 28mm tyres on wide rimmed wheels you’ll get a great, comfy and fast ride with your tyres at a fairly low pressure (if your bike has the clearance).
Tubs are great, the best. If I was racing for a team that supplied me with a new £70 tub every time I punctured in a race (or even more embarrassingly out training on tubs) and fitted it for me then yes, but...
Off road is a different kettle of worms/can of fish. I can massively see the benefits of riding tubeless on MTB and CX now that I have proper off road “mad skillz” and 1 fractured wrist back in October to show for it...
Don’t ask if you don’t know, but I taught Mitchy everything he knows about BMX stunts.
Chris I’ll dig the stuff out and ping you at work, as suggested. Should have it together for Friday.
Oh! And BTW Folks, the Charity will be EmmaK’s Save the Children ride. Cheers.