Thanks Sarge for the links....now have both books to read....
.....aiming to match your amazing efforts by losing 2-3 stone, albeit over the longer time period of next summer....
....goodbye booze, bread, pasta, rice, breakfast cereal, crisps, chocolate....on my 4th day I'm starving...if all else fails, I suppose I can eat the books!
There is a theory that we are meant for the "long haul", not speed, but being able to manage long distances such that we can hunt down prey for food. That is why we, along with horses, have sweat glands covering our entire body (as opposed to animals such as dogs), so we can cool down on the "go".
Aged 45, I set out a plan to drop 25lbs to 11 stone 2 for my 50th and specifically a "below 16% body fat" figure. I have to say that switching to road riding from mtn biking has helped no-end, that whole 3hr club aerobic ride, straying into the occasional anaerobic range is a huge benefit. I achieved it one year ago, aged 49, and have mostly kept it off, one biproduct being that of being able to see my ab's again after so long!
No bread, very little sugar, a simple small evening meal but with no carb's seems to work for me. Huge rice or oat based breakfasts though!
I had my HDL, LDL and Tri levels taken before and after my long-haul ride to see how a full English breakfast and vast amounts of flapjack might affect my cholestorol levels. No change.
Since you have given a link from The Daily Torygraph : Telegraph, there being two sides to every debate. Next year: eat according to your blood type, I'm sure others have had similar life-changing experiences on that too as this is is not a polemic.
The paleo diet trend is a dangerous fad, says Lucy Jones, a spokeswoman for the British Dietetic Association (BDA). There isnt any proof that it improves health, and its demand that you exclude food groups essential to health such as dairy, grains and legumes could leave people seriously deficient in essential vitamins and calcium, not to mention constipated from the lack of dietary fibre. (One thing dieticians do agree on is sugar, which is increasingly blamed for poor health, with the Action on Sugar campaign comparing it to smoking and alcohol in harmfulness.)
"Besides, asks Jones, what was the life expectancy for hunter-gatherers? About 20? Indeed, only a minority of our paleo ancestors would have made it to their forties, and many children would have died before they reached the age of 15"
"But large-scale studies are non-existent the Swedish one involved 14 people and, in light of their absence, many nutritionists remain vehemently opposed to the paleo diet. In its 2013 ranking of 28 diets, which took into account safety, nutrition, weight loss and the effects on diabetes and heart disease, the influential US News & World Report placed paleo joint last (with the Dukan Diet). Its panel of experts took issue with the diet on every measure.
Lizzie Armitstead is not the only successful athlete to be a strict vegetarian. Re-read any (colour sup') interview with any prospective gold medal hopeful prior to London 2012, be they road or track riders, and they ALL had a regime that started the day with a bowl of porridge.
What you have to asses here is how Sgt's lifestyle was before he made a change. Only then will you perhaps better comprehend why "Every single aspect of my life has been improved by taking up this (new, disciplined and different) lifestyle, marriage, social life, fitness, work, mood, focus, concentration, productivity and general overall life satisfaction and happiness.
Why did he gain such a huge amount of weight such that he felt a need for change? Only now, by grabbing the proverbial bull by the horn, has he turned his life around. I would offer up to you, had he seized the carrot by the shoots, the nut by the kernel and not the bull by the horns and the results would have been equally profound.
These fundamental changes, you could be justified in arguing, would just as easily have been achieved by going veggie, or vegan, or the blood-type diet, achieved by cutting out the rubbish, booze, but in particular, as mentioned above, or products containing sugar, honey, fruit concentrate, maple syrup, corn syrup, any of the -ose ingredients like dextrose, maltose etc,... refined potato starch.
In short, a complete sea-change was what was required, it just seems the pale diet was the one chosen, nothing more. Jumping on someone else's bandwagon is fine, but be aware, this is alway going to be the case with new converts, fundamentalists for want of a better word. Dont get me wrong, all strength to your elbow Sgt, but Im sure someone will along shortly to tell you how finding Jesus changed their previously out-of-kilter life(style). Its just whats worked for one man and as I say, is in no way a polemic. Now, wheres that carrot, Im sure I left it here somewhere?
Thanks Andy for this, i had heard from Robbie, amazing and well done!
I am down a stone with 'sober October', salads and mucho exercise ... but what ever works heh.. I also have read a lot of Joe Friel's stuff and always use his training diaries... so will give this a go too :-)
A week on this now, so some feedback for those interested:
Weight loss 3.5llb.
No milk, bread, pasta, rice, spuds, breakfast cereals, crisps, chocolate, no booze except 1 pint cider (couldn't help it!), fruit (except berries and raisens post rides)
Plenty of fish, salad, green veg, seeds, nuts, berries, raisens.
How do I feel? Hungry ALL the time, tired, lethargic expecially after rides (100 miles this week), some small upset stomach, feeling thirsty a lot, had leg cramps once.
BUT... sleeping better, indigestion gone (used to take Rennies often), no more bloating (could be the lack of milk, bread?)
So, will keep at it for a while. As Tim says, cutting out the booze and rubbish has been the major change and that must be doing some good - common sense really. I don't want to become a diet bore, more of an adoption of a healthier lifestyle and the Paris Nice ride next year is just the target I need to get me back on track.
Just found this interesting debate and yes Nat - obviously interesting to me. It's my life's work. :0) My experience as a Performance Nutritionist working with elite GB athletes including cyclists, runners and Olympic rowers along with my continual scientific study and knowledge, I would confirm that a ketogenic diet is undoubtedly the best "style" of diet for MOST (not all) endurance athletes. Most of my calories come from natural fats, I am "fat adapted". It's how I can ride for 3 hours on an empty stomach or just a handful of nuts without burning muscle tissue and perform far better than if I had a bowl of porridge. It's also why Sgt Pain can do the same. But I am not always consistent as I love wine, chocolate and chips and I don't have a weight problem. But I know how to get "back on track" to fat adaptation quickly.
The difficulty I have with my athletes in regular competition (and why others perceive it to be dangerous or unsuccessful) is, as Sgt Pain has suggested, it takes TIME to train your body to become fat adapted not to mention unwavering commitment. And when you compete at national and international level every week, it's not possible to implement a full fat adaptation Nutrition Programme. But you can achieve it on a partial basis. So yes, you experience a lot of fatigue, headaches, dizziness and some real mental lows in the process. I can totally relate to the comment about mental clarity and the fact that it has the ability to change your life beyond recognition - there are no words to describe it. It is a metabolic and physiological result of becoming fat efficient.
Sadly Tim, the view point of current gvt dieticians is significantly influenced by political agendas and the government's allegiances to the food industry, the grain industry, the dairy industry, the sugar industry and the food industry's shareholders. Their science is over 100 years old because there is so much red tape involved and financial implications of changing curriculums to reflect current Nutritional science. I'm afraid Lucy Jones is talking utter nonsense.
I regularly test my athletes with my labs for clinical proof - I get real results over and over again by training their bodies to stop being so reliant on glucose as their predominant fuel source. It works!!! There is also plenty of credible scientific evidence available now contrary to Lucy's comments, to confirm Sgt Pain's experiences.
I delivered a talk to the youth squad a year ago and addressed some of these issues and gave them practical guidelines they could adopt. I know it made a huge difference to them. I offered to do the same for CCA as a whole but the idea got lost somewhere. I'm happy to do it anytime though to support CCA.
Let's not pretend there are any serious endurance athletes following ketogenic diets and being successful in their sports. It is simply not possible to produce the required energy from fat in the required timescale.
Just a tiny sanity check.
You can lose weight that way, but it's not necessary.
I was at the talk Gwen gave to the CCA youth. As the team manager of the then Junior squad I can advise that their eating habits did not change as a result of that talk.
I'd just like to say that I was at the 'talk to the youth squad'. Since then none of use have changed our diet due to it. Everyone is entitled to there own opinion and own diet, do not feel that there is one which you must follow. Someone is always trying to sell something.
It's a good sanity check. I realise Sgt Pain said he eats no carbs. But a Paleo/Ketogenic diet does in fact contain carbs - just from different sources - people forget vegetables and nuts also contain carbs esp. cashew nuts. A ketogenic diet usually contains 50g carbs. That's why I used the word ketogenic "style" diet. None of my athletes are on a 100% ketogenic diet all the time. It requires a specific cyclical protocol incorporating days where the body is not ketogenic with approx. 100-200g carbs. Ultimately there is still no doubt that a ketogenic state greatly enhances your lipolysis (fat burning efficiency), aerobic capacity and your muscular endurance. But it is not for everyone.
well that's interesting! It's not the feedback I received from other people - Chinese whispers and crossed wires I guess! What a shame. Still, doesn't change the science behind fat adaptation though. And no I'm not selling anything Jeez! Just offering to support my club because it's my club! More crossed wires. Blimey!
I've been trying to resist the urge to wade into this, but I do have concerns about large numbers of my friends taking up the latest trendy diet - especially when some of them are still growing
I've ridden with youngsters who've deliberately skipped breakfast and then wondered why they can't keep up with the group ... and people of all ages who think that to ride longer than they're accustomed to requires x number of gels per hour ... and people who seriously believe that milk and/or wheat and/or carbohydrate are BAD foods. All of these things are illogical. They are simply myths that are perpetuated by people who don't have the scientific rigour to critique the evidence or to fully understand it. Somebody somewhere makes money out of your desire to lose weight, or go faster, or whatever else you dream of
I'm a medic by training and unlike the 'human' medics, vets invest a lot of time researching, studying and practising in nutrition - for farm animal production, for athletic performance (think racehorses, sled dogs in arctic conditions, working collies, police/army dogs) and simply for rearing strong and healthy animals of all species. I used to lecture in clinical nutrition at some of the top universities and I do get irritated now by a lot of the nonsense that's peddled as nutritional advice
But that's my problem and I'm learning to let the nonsense wash over me! I do believe that everyone has the right to choose to follow whatever diet he/she feels is right for him/her. Generally, our bodies are brilliant at coping with whatever food and exercise we throw at them - unless you have a medical condition or you're still growing, in which case it'd be a v gd idea to consult your GP before starting one of these trendy diets
O.K. folks. As some have said let's just back up here a little. Everyone has a point to make and most have been sound. Gwen, don't get upset. Theo and the others don't always think what their well meant comments always imply. I'm absolutely certain that everyone here understands that you and Andrew are not selling anything. It's Gwen's whole professional life and Andrews latest enthusiasm as I'm sure he would attest. As "athletes" we all get rather "up" ourselves at times with the latest thing whether it be food or bikes. Going over the top is par for the course and anything less than obsession would be abnormal :-) If it is just about losing weight, and for most of us that is an issue (who wants to carry excess baggage up hill?) then cutting out EXCESS of any sort is going to get results. We all eat or drink more than we need unless you have a fat ratio of 13% or less. I have enjoyed reading and learning something new and may well look into this in the future. For the present I intend a more conventional approach to losing a stone before next september. I believe that a balanced diet requires you to eat most foods in moderation. My problem is moderation :-) Just as an aside, I'm betting you survive this particular diet for 2 years Andy. :-)
Everyone is different and therefore different nutritional plans will work in different ways. Personally I can get away with challenges such as eating 10 McDonalds cheeseburgers as quick as you can (18mims if anyone is interested) yet still improve all season.
I think it's worth directing everyone to the October Press cuttings. More on what this club is about IMO.....
This got me back from Wells and left with a few miles in my legs to spare, could have gone on for another 50 I reckon.
I've lost 4 stone since I started cycling about 7 years ago and have changed my diet a little bit over the years. Now I'm taking racing a little more seriously I've started eating healthier, generally more veg and less fried stuff but that's about it. You'll still find half of the guys you've been racing in a McDonalds on the way home on a Sunday afternoon (food of champions, I do believe).
We're a cycling club, everybody who rides with us loves riding a bike. The more you ride a bike, the healthier you'll be and the better you'll feel. The more smug you can be when the machine in hospital beeps and shows lots of red lights because your heart rate is "too low" as I found out on Monday... Good to see the EPO's working.
Comments
.....aiming to match your amazing efforts by losing 2-3 stone, albeit over the longer time period of next summer....
....goodbye booze, bread, pasta, rice, breakfast cereal, crisps, chocolate....on my 4th day I'm starving...if all else fails, I suppose I can eat the books!
Starving Dutchman
Aged 45, I set out a plan to drop 25lbs to 11 stone 2 for my 50th and specifically a "below 16% body fat" figure. I have to say that switching to road riding from mtn biking has helped no-end, that whole 3hr club aerobic ride, straying into the occasional anaerobic range is a huge benefit. I achieved it one year ago, aged 49, and have mostly kept it off, one biproduct being that of being able to see my ab's again after so long!
No bread, very little sugar, a simple small evening meal but with no carb's seems to work for me. Huge rice or oat based breakfasts though!
I had my HDL, LDL and Tri levels taken before and after my long-haul ride to see how a full English breakfast and vast amounts of flapjack might affect my cholestorol levels. No change.
The paleo diet trend is a dangerous fad, says Lucy Jones, a spokeswoman for the British Dietetic Association (BDA). There isnt any proof that it improves health, and its demand that you exclude food groups essential to health such as dairy, grains and legumes could leave people seriously deficient in essential vitamins and calcium, not to mention constipated from the lack of dietary fibre. (One thing dieticians do agree on is sugar, which is increasingly blamed for poor health, with the Action on Sugar campaign comparing it to smoking and alcohol in harmfulness.)
"Besides, asks Jones, what was the life expectancy for hunter-gatherers? About 20? Indeed, only a minority of our paleo ancestors would have made it to their forties, and many children would have died before they reached the age of 15"
"But large-scale studies are non-existent the Swedish one involved 14 people and, in light of their absence, many nutritionists remain vehemently opposed to the paleo diet. In its 2013 ranking of 28 diets, which took into account safety, nutrition, weight loss and the effects on diabetes and heart disease, the influential US News & World Report placed paleo joint last (with the Dukan Diet). Its panel of experts took issue with the diet on every measure.
Again, from the Telegraph
Lizzie Armitstead is not the only successful athlete to be a strict vegetarian. Re-read any (colour sup') interview with any prospective gold medal hopeful prior to London 2012, be they road or track riders, and they ALL had a regime that started the day with a bowl of porridge.
What you have to asses here is how Sgt's lifestyle was before he made a change. Only then will you perhaps better comprehend why "Every single aspect of my life has been improved by taking up this (new, disciplined and different) lifestyle, marriage, social life, fitness, work, mood, focus, concentration, productivity and general overall life satisfaction and happiness.
Why did he gain such a huge amount of weight such that he felt a need for change? Only now, by grabbing the proverbial bull by the horn, has he turned his life around. I would offer up to you, had he seized the carrot by the shoots, the nut by the kernel and not the bull by the horns and the results would have been equally profound.
These fundamental changes, you could be justified in arguing, would just as easily have been achieved by going veggie, or vegan, or the blood-type diet, achieved by cutting out the rubbish, booze, but in particular, as mentioned above, or products containing sugar, honey, fruit concentrate, maple syrup, corn syrup, any of the -ose ingredients like dextrose, maltose etc,... refined potato starch.
In short, a complete sea-change was what was required, it just seems the pale diet was the one chosen, nothing more. Jumping on someone else's bandwagon is fine, but be aware, this is alway going to be the case with new converts, fundamentalists for want of a better word. Dont get me wrong, all strength to your elbow Sgt, but Im sure someone will along shortly to tell you how finding Jesus changed their previously out-of-kilter life(style). Its just whats worked for one man and as I say, is in no way a polemic. Now, wheres that carrot, Im sure I left it here somewhere?
I am down a stone with 'sober October', salads and mucho exercise ... but what ever works heh.. I also have read a lot of Joe Friel's stuff and always use his training diaries... so will give this a go too :-)
Weight loss 3.5llb.
No milk, bread, pasta, rice, spuds, breakfast cereals, crisps, chocolate, no booze except 1 pint cider (couldn't help it!), fruit (except berries and raisens post rides)
Plenty of fish, salad, green veg, seeds, nuts, berries, raisens.
How do I feel? Hungry ALL the time, tired, lethargic expecially after rides (100 miles this week), some small upset stomach, feeling thirsty a lot, had leg cramps once.
BUT... sleeping better, indigestion gone (used to take Rennies often), no more bloating (could be the lack of milk, bread?)
So, will keep at it for a while. As Tim says, cutting out the booze and rubbish has been the major change and that must be doing some good - common sense really. I don't want to become a diet bore, more of an adoption of a healthier lifestyle and the Paris Nice ride next year is just the target I need to get me back on track.
Will update this thread as and when.
John
The difficulty I have with my athletes in regular competition (and why others perceive it to be dangerous or unsuccessful) is, as Sgt Pain has suggested, it takes TIME to train your body to become fat adapted not to mention unwavering commitment. And when you compete at national and international level every week, it's not possible to implement a full fat adaptation Nutrition Programme. But you can achieve it on a partial basis. So yes, you experience a lot of fatigue, headaches, dizziness and some real mental lows in the process. I can totally relate to the comment about mental clarity and the fact that it has the ability to change your life beyond recognition - there are no words to describe it. It is a metabolic and physiological result of becoming fat efficient.
Sadly Tim, the view point of current gvt dieticians is significantly influenced by political agendas and the government's allegiances to the food industry, the grain industry, the dairy industry, the sugar industry and the food industry's shareholders. Their science is over 100 years old because there is so much red tape involved and financial implications of changing curriculums to reflect current Nutritional science. I'm afraid Lucy Jones is talking utter nonsense.
I regularly test my athletes with my labs for clinical proof - I get real results over and over again by training their bodies to stop being so reliant on glucose as their predominant fuel source. It works!!! There is also plenty of credible scientific evidence available now contrary to Lucy's comments, to confirm Sgt Pain's experiences.
Let's not pretend there are any serious endurance athletes following ketogenic diets and being successful in their sports. It is simply not possible to produce the required energy from fat in the required timescale.
Just a tiny sanity check.
You can lose weight that way, but it's not necessary.
I'd just like to say that I was at the 'talk to the youth squad'. Since then none of use have changed our diet due to it.
Everyone is entitled to there own opinion and own diet, do not feel that there is one which you must follow.
Someone is always trying to sell something.
I've ridden with youngsters who've deliberately skipped breakfast and then wondered why they can't keep up with the group ... and people of all ages who think that to ride longer than they're accustomed to requires x number of gels per hour ... and people who seriously believe that milk and/or wheat and/or carbohydrate are BAD foods. All of these things are illogical. They are simply myths that are perpetuated by people who don't have the scientific rigour to critique the evidence or to fully understand it. Somebody somewhere makes money out of your desire to lose weight, or go faster, or whatever else you dream of
I'm a medic by training and unlike the 'human' medics, vets invest a lot of time researching, studying and practising in nutrition - for farm animal production, for athletic performance (think racehorses, sled dogs in arctic conditions, working collies, police/army dogs) and simply for rearing strong and healthy animals of all species. I used to lecture in clinical nutrition at some of the top universities and I do get irritated now by a lot of the nonsense that's peddled as nutritional advice
But that's my problem and I'm learning to let the nonsense wash over me! I do believe that everyone has the right to choose to follow whatever diet he/she feels is right for him/her. Generally, our bodies are brilliant at coping with whatever food and exercise we throw at them - unless you have a medical condition or you're still growing, in which case it'd be a v gd idea to consult your GP before starting one of these trendy diets
As "athletes" we all get rather "up" ourselves at times with the latest thing whether it be food or bikes. Going over the top is par for the course and anything less than obsession would be abnormal :-)
If it is just about losing weight, and for most of us that is an issue (who wants to carry excess baggage up hill?) then cutting out EXCESS of any sort is going to get results. We all eat or drink more than we need unless you have a fat ratio of 13% or less.
I have enjoyed reading and learning something new and may well look into this in the future. For the present I intend a more conventional approach to losing a stone before next september.
I believe that a balanced diet requires you to eat most foods in moderation. My problem is moderation :-)
Just as an aside, I'm betting you survive this particular diet for 2 years Andy. :-)
I think it's worth directing everyone to the October Press cuttings. More on what this club is about IMO.....
I've lost 4 stone since I started cycling about 7 years ago and have changed my diet a little bit over the years. Now I'm taking racing a little more seriously I've started eating healthier, generally more veg and less fried stuff but that's about it. You'll still find half of the guys you've been racing in a McDonalds on the way home on a Sunday afternoon (food of champions, I do believe).
We're a cycling club, everybody who rides with us loves riding a bike. The more you ride a bike, the healthier you'll be and the better you'll feel. The more smug you can be when the machine in hospital beeps and shows lots of red lights because your heart rate is "too low" as I found out on Monday... Good to see the EPO's working.