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  • It's great to see Sgt Pain looking so healthy and happy too!
  • I had a look at the Zabriskie article, and it's thin on actual dietary detail. I found this daily breakdown:

    323 grams of protein, 239 grams of fat, and 147 grams of carbohydrate.


    I am not sure if that is supposed to be typical of in-competition or not, but it's actually a pretty balanced daily intake, and typical of someone trying to lose weight, while not aiming for optimal performance so I would guess out of competition.

    The other names are always the same as get mentioned in connection with low carb diets. If they are so proven, wouldn't we expect many more of the tens of thousands of athletes getting mentioned?

    This is what Colting eats in competition:

    “Between stages I ate non-stop; Recovery drinks, rice pudding, bananas, Clif-bars, candy, chips, water, cookies and some normal meals like Thai food after the first day and fresh fish and mashed potatoes after day 2. My appetite was great all through out and I didn’t have any of that bloating that sometimes occurs during massive physical activity. Except for on the bike during the first day, but I know why that happened.”

    After that, it's all about Phinney's studies, but they have been fairly comprehensively debunked.

    This study below is now considered the gold standard on high-fat for athletes, and it's not positive.

    Helge JW. Adaptation to a fat-rich diet: effects on endurance performance in humans. Sports Medicine, Nov, 2000; 30 (5): 347-357.

    There is a reason the vast majority of athletes follow balanced diets - they work.
  • FDFD
    edited October 2014
    All good debate:

    'But remember the take-home message that we emphasize throughout this book: moderation and quality' - Joe Friel and Lorien Cordian, see book link above.

    And no, I'm not connected with the book publishers, authors, book retailers, Amazon etc....!! :-)

    That's what I'm trying here, to eat sensibly, in moderation and adopt a healthier lifestyle (not diet) than I've had in recent years. Lose a few pounds and enjoy my riding even more. Not live like a monk (although the Trappists know a thing about liquid refreshment!)

    So as an example of a balanced lifestyle, I've had a healthy breakfast and lunch and am out for dinner and 'isotonic' drinks in Soho on my work team night out....er, not sure my 'balance' will be quite so good later this evening.......!!

    FD
  • edited April 2018
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  • I don't think we are in any kind of agreement. If you think we are, I suggest you read my post again. The take home should be that the Mens Journal article is thin on information and useless for working out what Zabriskie is actually doing.
  • edited April 2018
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  • FDFD
    edited October 2014
    Thanks for sharing your experience Andy.

    3 stones in 3 months is some achievement and has clearly worked for you. Brilliant effort.

    I've seen the change in you from someone hanging onto the beginners chain gang last year on the small climb just past Abington Pigots ( Andy was good enough to give up his time free, as an accomplished former sprint track cyclist, to teach us how to follow a wheel and ride as a team) to now leading the club run over the hills. Impressive transformation.

    But we are all individuals with differing abilities, motivations and bodies. No one approach will suit us all and Andy hasn't said it will. I personally used to love the hamburger and beer diet and it worked for me for years.....!! But within a whisker of my 50th year it no longer works as well....

    Eating healthily over the past 2 weeks has enabled me to shift some weight and get back on track. Cutting down the 'bad' stuff, having a better approach to food, lifestyle, exercise and rest. All sensible stuff really, moderation's the word.

    Curry and beer? Lovely.....in moderation of course! Thanks again Sarge

    FD
  • Is this technically a "food fight"?
  • No, Will this is a non-food fight!
  • So I haven't really lost weight this season, but my body has changed shape with the amount of cycling I've been doing. My weight has remained pretty constant but my gut has got a bit smaller. My brain must be getting heavier (my head's certainly got bigger since the hill climb).

    My advice would be to ride a National B every other weekend, with Regional As on the other weekends, with a mid week time trial and if you're really keen (and have part of your brain removed) ride the bowl on a Thursday. Alongside this do some 3-4 hour training rides.

    Also, Gwen kindly gave me a recipe for a green smoothie (tastes better than it sounds) to start the day with instead of a big bowl of muesli or porridge if I'm not doing a heavy ride. If I'm on a race day or training hard that day I simply add some porridge oats to it which makes it nice and creamy and gives me plenty of energy. Long race days I start with a bowl of porridge with seeds and fruit. I'm sure that there are all sorts of ways to lose weight (chat to Martin L, he's very impressively looking like half the man he was a few months back) but that's all I've really done. A spot of calorie counting using myfitnesspal helps too (just make sure you link up your heart rate monitor to something and count the calories from that, if you use the automatic settings on mfp it assumes that you need to burn loads of calories to ride at certain speeds as opposed to actual effort so gives you crazy numbers for rides over 18mph average). If you run out of energy regularly, eat more. I only ever do fasted rides on the turbo/rollers and only for an hour. I hate being hungry... Talk to the guys you train and ride with, see what they do. Hopefully I'll be able to wear my skin suit next season without scaring innocent bystanders.
  • edited April 2018
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  • FDFD
    edited October 2014
    Good to hear it Sarge!

    My night out with work was actually not that bad - steak with green beans, had a couple of chips from a colleague, had a bite of whole meal bread with some olive oil, a tiny amount of goats cheese.....but several glasses of wine! Avoided temptation at Kings X on the way home and had a bottle of still water.

    Out for an hour's spin soon...still feel lethargic from the lower carb intake (or is it last night?), but have now dropped just over half a stone in 2 weeks. Conventionally that would be too much, as 2 pounds/week appears the suggested 'norm'.

    May explain why I haven't been able to train that much on this lower carb approach so far....power and endurance much reduced, light headedness, difficulty concentrating, slight nausea...body just adjusting after years of excess? No hunger pangs though, digestion problems cleared up. I have a handful of seeds and some fruit (berries) at the low points to get through it. A lot of greens, veg and salads. Friel's book suggest the first 2 weeks are the hardest, so perhaps it would have been better to stay off the bike or taper the carb intake, rather than stop the 'simple' carbs quite so dramatically.

    The green smoothie sounds interesting Will/Gwen - could you whisper me the receipe please as getting a bit bored of eggs in the morning! As the weight comes off, I'll re-introduce some porridge on longer ride days. I've no intention of racing anywhere, but have my sights set on completing Paris - Nice next September, with some challenging longer rides along the way.

    Hopefully out this weekend Sarge, but Sunday morning looks a shocker...wind and heavy rain....so might use the turbo instead.

    Dutch Dutch - DD
  • edited July 2017
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  • edited April 2018
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  • FDFD
    edited November 2014
    Latest update

    Been more or less following this for 3 weeks now.

    Weight loss 11llbs - target is to drop 30llbs and see how we go from there.

    Have been supplementing the meat, fish and veggies approach with a daily multivit and some sunflower/pumpkin seeds and fruit such as blueberries/strawberries/peaches and the odd apple or two.

    No spuds, grains, cereals, pasta, dairy or puddings/sweets/crisps.

    I do have some carbs before, during and after a ride, but cut out the above foods on non-riding days

    First 2 weeks were pretty grim, felt very tired and weak, bonked very badly on one club ride, but now steadily feeling better on the bike. Just spinning along at 16mph for up to 50 miles.

    Still a little tired, hunger pangs diminished, clearer headed, sleeping better.....one of the biggest helps here has to be cutting out booze almost entirely.

    Summary - encouraging early signs, with the odd hiccup and as Sarge says above, just my personal experience rather than advocating anyone else follows this approach.

    John
  • FDFD
    edited November 2014
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  • edited April 2018
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  • Great write-up Andrew. Stunning improvements and hard earned. I suspect the slightly harsh or mildly critical responses are for the following reasons. Firstly, people like the comfort of feeling they can go to friends for meals without hosts having the heeby jeebies as to whether anything they have prepared will be eaten. It's a slightly unsettling thing to feel that everything we have been used to eating and everything we have learned about carb loading may be totally wrong. It is also different for everyone and may not suit everyone even though we would all love to share in the prospect of such weight loss and energy/health gains.
    In truth most of us are too lazy to go to the effort, hardship and research you have to attain the benefits. Might still try it though even though I only need to lose a stone :-)
  • Well done Andy - keep up the good work and sharing your progress. Interestingly I have literally just come back from having seen a client who is now off steroid inhalers after 34 years having been cleared by their GP after having implemented my diet changes and their osteoarthritis has "gone" and no medication required. I have also had clients come off omeprazole (for acid reflux) and metformin (type II diabetic) recently with consent from their GP after years of medication.

    These amazing revelations are daily occurrences for me after I have been with clients. Aside from all the fitness/endurance benefits and shaving minutes of PBs etc through changing life-long food habits to a more paleo-based/low-carb based approach, there's nothing more satisfying than someone telling you their life has changed immeasurably for good and they are no longer in pain. And yes, it's not for everyone and there are degrees on the low-carb spectrum.
  • Brief update after 5 weeks on this.

    Weight loss 14 llbs, just shy of halfway to target loss of 30llbs.

    My approach has been to cut down on the carbs, rather than eliminate them entirely, but virtually no bread, pasta, rice or spuds. No sugar, crisps or breakfast cereals. A lot more green veg and more fruit such as melon, pear, peach and apples, plus berries, seeds and walnuts. No alcohol during the week, but a few glasses of wine at weekends. Occassional treats, such as a few squares of 80% cocoa dark chocolate have been kept as incentives and I do have some carbs before, during and after exercise otherwise I'm completely drained. Going better on the bike, hills a bit easier, but nothing too strenuous in effort or distance wise - 50 miles @ 16-17mph. A long way off where I'd like to be.

    Healthwise, my long standing indigestion problems have cleared up, I'm sleeping better and can concentrate better at work, but I'm tired in the evening and the hunger is still always just there in the background.

    So far, so good. I'll keep at it and see how it goes. Again, it's not for everyone and my approach is not strict Paleo, but rather adopting a lower refined carb intake than before and eating more fresh, healthier foods.

    Will update again as and when

    John
  • 0845

    National guidance on gastric surgery has been changed, meaning up to two million people could now be eligible for weight loss surgery. Previously, it was seen as a last resort. Now the health advisory body, NICE, says the number of operations should be tripled to reduce the cost to the NHS of treating Type 2 diabetes. Dr Rachel Batterham is head of weight loss services at University College London Hospital

    Listened in horror today. Seriously they pose this as the best approach. Humphries tried suggesting people should lose weight themselves and she said that past a certain point the body resisted this and needed surgery as a necessary kick start to lose 7 stone. Was talking of 15 stone people 5ft 5inches in height as an example of this profile.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04pv736 2hrs 35 mins into programme.
  • edited November 2014
    A sign of our times Geoff, when the NHS tells us that a Gastric By-Pass is a wholly acceptable & cheaper option than the genuine spectre of the ever mounting bill that is the care for the tsunami of Type 2 diabetes patients (& the associated longterm care thereafter) that is heading to our shores.

    Regrettable this sends out the dubious signal that all’s fine in the UK kitchen: "Carry on and Eat” fret ye not as the NHS will perform the duties of the 7th Cavalry and ride to the country’s collective aid with the necessary bands (sound of trumpets and horses hooves curtesy of the BBC Sound dept).

    I suspect this will open the proverbial flood gates, a factor Darwin never fully anticipated and another entirely avoidable fiscal burden for us all to pay for - plus it likely means that the operating theatre my mother was to have her hip replacement in is now going to be booked out ’til 2019.

    Creaking sounds of the NHS c/o the extra large people in beds 1- 101+
  • edited April 2018
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  • Never put any credence in ANY measure gov. uses to amass stats to beguile the masses.
    Never liked BMI. far too simplistic a measure. Agree Andy.
    When you think of it, nearly every publicly stated statistic is bound to be biased to reflect the way gov. wants us to behave. Trouble is far too many of us are too well educated now to fall for the official line. Makes it harder for our "betters" to control us.
    keep up the good work A.
  • Saw an interesting study recently which addressed the BMI problem
    This showed in a large study that your waist needs to be the same or less than half your height.
    When this is used the 6feet seven rugby players are then ok.

    With BMI above ,as per Andy , I am overweight, but my waist is exactly half my height

    Just for interest
    There is an official campaign to change to this measure, but vested interests are involved as highlighted above.

    Get your tape measure out and check

    James
  • edited April 2018
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  • The BMI was invented by an insurance actuary, who then draw an arbitrary line on obesity and subsequently put up life insurance premiums for those affected.
    No medical study was done.

    The study above was based on a medical study on a large population.
    It's simplicity beguiles the work behind it.

    Danny Devito and Arnold Schwarzenegger famously had the same BMI on the Twins film set.
    They do not have the same height to waist ratio

    But only chatting
    James
  • edited December 2014
    BMI, along with measurements such as the one that suggests you HR max is 220 minus your age work for most people most of the time.
    It’s always going to be complicated, having guidelines population-wide that attempt to encompass those outside of the "mean / average". This is where common-sense must prevail.

    There are other more involved tests that can be used to gain a better understanding of one’s % body fat, if indeed that is what you want to know, or one's VO2 rating, for example.

    My BMI is of no real interest to me per se, however I am more interested in my % body fat and my visceral fat %, that’s the fat accumulated around the middle - read: vital organs. For this I use a monitor . I can't tell you how accurate it really is, but having used it for 5yrs, I have seen my % drop steadily from about 22% to 14.7%, and a drop in overall weight of about 25lbs.

    This suits me fine and I think I look AOK. However, my Bad cholesterol is still higher than the Good cholesterol, and there's mounting evidence to suggest stripping away animal fats and butter (for example) is actually incorrect behaviour. I think there is a sea-change underway about how we're now viewing refined, in fact all sugars in the diet. It seems what we know is no longer correct & not what we need to know, and what we need to know is already old knowledge, and wrong knowledge.Someone's making money along the line i'm sure!

    Besides, being the yon' side of 50 - I am increasing reading about measures to stem the inevitable loss of memory & the likely decline into dementia that seems to be stalking much of the population, and less about how I look. My days of looking good on the dance floor, sadly, have faded!
  • FDFD
    edited January 2015
    Post Festive season (distinctly non-paleo) update!

    Not a great report.....weight loss at the end of November was 14llbs.......

    ........weight loss now, after a December 'sea-food' (eat everything you see!) approach, supplemented with isotonic' beverages and numerous (albeit shorter) rides is 9llbs!

    So, 9llbs lighter, but now back to a lower carb (when not riding) approach....including the Dryathlon no-alcohol challenge for January!

    Watch this space for more updates!

    John
  • FDFD
    edited February 2015
    'Dryathlon' no-alcohol in January successfully completed!

    December excess now reversed - current overall weight loss is 13llbs from start point in late October '14.

    Not following a strict Paleo programme...more of a 'carb-awareness' approach.

    So, carbs tend to be porridge before a ride and a banana during rides, with fruit and raisens, sometimes a biscuit during recovery.

    Otherwise, tend to avoid pastas, spuds and rice etc...more fresh fruits and veg, salads.

    Sometimes have a low calorie day, akin to the intermittent fasting approach albeit not so extreme and that's when work and family commitments allow - don't tend to ride on these days either

    Weekly exercise currently consists of 2 turbo sessions involving intervals, plus 1 longer and 1 shorter ride at weekends. Weather permitting!!

    Another update as and when.....

    FD
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