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Team Sky and British Cycling

Do any of you share my despair at the news trickling out........... I still want to believe the stated ethos of a clean team.
The sheer stupidity of the way this has been handled has upset and shocked me given the OCD nature of Sir DB's attention to detail and control nature. My belief is they made a bad decision to take advantage of the TUE's loophole. They must have know the added side benefits of the drug even if it was the only one to sort Wiggins medical needs.
I am not surprised at the revelations about BC's approach to training women and men and their chauvanism.
The management has a cliquey approach face fits mentality and they definitely put employees under pressure as many are made to fear for their positions and therefore are likely to do things without question to secure their posts. I don't believe it is as bad as the media are making out but both organisations need a shaking if only to restore our faith that they are doing right by their riders.
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Comments

  • Despair shared and some good points here although a lot of separate issues so lets go...

    Firstly, I believe the ethos of the team still remains and that it is by its nature is a work in progress. There has been some lapse along the way notably with Greert Leinders coming strictly under the 'what where they thinking' and JTL whose indiscretion was prior to him signing with Sky but still a little naive on the part of Sky who where reliant on others.

    Fully agree with the 'sheer stupidity' comment regarding the TUE's and why they chose not to kill this dead when they could rather than be evasive is a little puzzling. I understand that DB cites in part direction from UKAD but SS account is just unbelievable....literally.

    Revelations about BC's approach to training - i assume in part that you are referring to Jess Varnish's allegations which i struggle with given the timing of the complaints and the subsequent compensation claim

    I dont believe the management are cliquey and struggle with this point. There is of course pressure to preform but i believe no more than other teams.

    Completely agree with the press and their attitude to Sky especially the french press and its known drug cheat correspondents. Of course a successful team with such a strong ethos will always attract a degree of criticism and speculation and DB lacks the media cunning to deal with this to some degree.

    In my with opinion Sky is a fantastic ambassador and advocate for both cycling and Britain. The team has undoubtedly made mistakes but have sort to correct them and in this post Armstrong era i guess no one expected the ghosts to disappear overnight.

    A very interesting subject Geoff under the banner of 'to be continued' and definitely one to discuss over a bottle (or 2) of wine
  • happy to share a bottle with you Pete. From what I have seen there seems to have been a hangover of jobs for the boys attitude in British Cycling. This is changing and there are a large number of highly qualified and motivated people in the organisation. I think this recent report will catalyse a shake up and allow the good ones to come to the top. I believe Jess, Victoria and other female cyclists who have had the rough end of the old system. There are also many who have thrived in the system. It's just that a rigid performance driven programme which doesn't adjust to the maveric nature of individuals tends to spit out those who don't fit their way of doing things. we lose a lot of talented people that way but there are still sufficient coming through their way to feed the programme. I guess that's life in general.some make it, some survive and some don't.
    As for Sky I think that Sir DB and team have built a superb organisation and a talented squad who will go on to greater success. I just wish they had been more savvy with the media and not tried to use a legitimate loophole which has now tainted their squeaky clean image. Nothing and no one is perfect and we learn from our mistakes. This can only make them stronger and better if they move on transparently from here.
  • I don't disagree with any of the above

    DB orchestrated and oversaw a new way of training with Team Sky mainly driven by Tim Kerrison who interestingly does not have a cycling background and supported by Rod Ellingworth of course

    TK is very systematic and rigid and of course implemented a lot on new training techniques such as structed winter training etc. Riders are monitored constantly in both their training performances, what they eat and indeed a rider will have to apply if they wish to eat unknown snacks. This then goes through a process where Sky approach the manufacturers of said snack and request the contents before sanctioning its use and adding it to the plan.

    This approach has built a successful team but as you remark possably at the exclusion of mavericks and notably JTL. JTL never did well at Sky and struggled with the training regime, my thoughts are as you suggest because JTL was a maverick with a background in BMX rather than the more familiar route in which the training schedule would have been similar. Its interesting that the successful Sky riders generally have very similar training passports.

    Apparently, after the departure of JTL and when Mikel Nieve joined Sky DB implemented the 'Wining Behaviours strategy' which asks 'what makes you stop wining? this seems to imply that the training regime needs to be more flexible and to be tailored to the rider and that all riders are not the same both physically and psychologically (even after a few sessions with SP)

    Agree completely with the comments regarding the media in which DB appears to be very naive and too open. Very strange than that in the debate on the use of TUE's DB is the polar opposite which leads us conveniently back to your first post of despair and stupidity..harsh but fair
  • Large, big-money professional team (allegedly):

    -- Cutting corners?
    -- Engaging in (gasp) nepotism?
    -- Exploiting grey areas for performance (e.g. financial) gain?
    -- Putting large amounts of pressure (e.g. bullying) to conform and perform?
    -- Becoming secretive and insular to protect its interests?
    -- Letting behavioural standards slip amongst key personnel?

    Is anyone seriously surprised by any of this? When sport is a paid entertainment profession these are, and always will be, the inevitable consequences. Predictable, unavoidable, unsurprising and inevitable.

    Cynical? No, just realistic about human nature.
  • you didn't think this way before Lance Armstrong Andy......his revelations gutted you and left you despairing. We all need HOPE in life. it is what makes people lift themselves to attain the seemingly unattainable. Whilst I recognise all those things you note I still believe that there is a better way to live and act. Just because everyone else says these things are inevitable doesn't mean we have to lower our hopes or succumb.
    DB set out his game plan and staked his reputation on achieving a performance driven clean team. If he wishes to continue running SKY then he has to demonstrate openly how he will recover from this set back.
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  • good points Andy.However, just because it's about making money from success doesn't mean you have to cheat. There is good publicity value in winning clean and sponsors would be happier to be associated with a clean team winning so I don't believe just because money is involved it has to be bent.
    Having started the youth section of CCA and coaching , supporting and seeing our young riders develop and mature into fine adults and athletes with their own hopes and ambitions I still believe in doing ones utmost to work for a clean sport. Unless you keep fighting and striving for the right way it will eventually deteriorate into the mire we are crawling out from yet again.There is a difference in being aware of what is going on and thinking that is the only way. Some money is still there for the right reasons so I'll keep taking the blue pill as you suggest though I hold that my reality is still achievable.
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  • if you publicly declare you run a transparent poilcy/team/organisation it ALL comes under the general heading of cheating.
    It's turning a blind eye, it's being "economical with he truth" it's pretending that you weren't aware of the beneficial side effects, and so on. You have been in professional promotional writing for the financial sector to know when something may be legal but immoral.
    They know what is right and the young riders we coach deserve their role models to do their best to maintain high ethical standards.
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  • so what do Sarah and Barney say to your view of corporate cycling and why have they set up a team with their intentions if this is a universal truth Andy? I don't accept your premise that because a lot are corrupted all will be.
  • Does anyone else share my view or have I completely misunderstood what the "real" game is? People don't start teams with this cynical outlook, they aspire to win or excel but don't automatically think they have to cheat. It may be that once in the game some think this is the only way to win but I am still certain it is only some and not all.
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  • Interesting thread. Sadly I agree with Andy's view on the world of professional sport. It's there for entertainment, but not necessarily to be believed. David Millar's book "Racing Through the Dark" is a great read, which illustrates Andy's point (assuming I understood your point correctly) - if you believe Millar's account, he tried to stay clean for a very long time until he realised that he couldn't compete (and therefore keep his contract) unless he when over to the dark side. It's a very interesting insight into how someone with the best of intentions was corrupted.
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  • Not entirely my point...It has taken you guys years since becoming adults to fine tune your cynicism into your sophisticated distancing and nuancing your opinions to reflect these views. Whether you or they like it or not they ARE role models and young aspiring and not so young riders expect more.
    Given the sports nutrition and training knowledge we can now bring to the game it is not impossible to race clean and compete.
    It's simple really. No loopholes..banned substances are banned in ALL circumstances. 100% testing before racing. If you can't race without taking drugs to help you breath properly that is sadly a disability. That's what the paralympics are there for. Inhalers for asthma are permitted to stop the participants collapsing from lack of oxygen. However you look at it it is a disability. I suffer from hay fever and the result is every year I lose some 20% lung capacity from excess fluid reducing my oxygen absorption capability. I would never have been able to compete in my youth.
    I think you are wrong and that it is possible to do it right. Racing clean has a lot to offer big money sponsors in feel good promotion.
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  • that's okay Andy. Nicely distanced and accurate. I am all in favour of changing ones opinion when new information becomes available.
    What you are not addressing with this show of literary expertise is how to make changes and alter circumstances to assist everyone to work back towards those goals set out at the beginning.
    There is nothing inherently impossible about racing clean. That is the goal to return to.
    There is everything wrong in giving in to the belief that letting big money twist the rules and behaviour to suit itself is inevitable.
    That is the whole point of having principles. They are difficult to live with and very hard to maintain, but unless we keep pushing against the corrupting influences we all lose out.
    Just saying someone is an adult because they have adjusted their viewpoint doesn't really mean anything. There are as many definitions of adulthood as childhood.
    You grow up when you learn that you can't blame someone else for your mistakes. When you own the consequences of your actions and take responsibility for trying to correct them as and when possible.
    You made an earlier assumption of my nature by inferring that we would all be turned by the corrupting influence of running a multimillion pound team
    " I KNOW that I would be just susceptible. So would you or anyone else, due to our fundamental nature. "
    My fundamental nature is totally averse to such Andy. If you don't know that you don't know me.
    I am not alone in this. I have spent a major part of my life working towards being free of any such influence and can honestly say that should someone wish to offer me such an opportunity I could setup and run a non corrupt team.
    I think there are others around of like mind and want them to step up to the plate and start showing how things can be run clean. Bespoke ran a good hour long discussion around this subject. Worth a listen on iPlayer radio.
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  • It's NOT personal so please address the points I made.

    It is not an inevitable unmovable situation. Just because they went wrong doesn't mean they can't put it right. See your point on learning from mistakes.

    There is MORE to be gained by a sponsor supporting a clean team than a "corrupted" team. just look at the sponsors who pulled out when the teams they supported were too deeply mired in the scandals. Cynical or otherwise it is still a commercial fact of life.

    People aspire to emulate their chosen role models. Whether we like it or not one cannot stop people doing this. As you are wont to say it's human nature.
    So the role models like it or not need to live up to the adulation many of them seek.

    It is possible to race clean by using the latest sport science and training. It's more expensive than drugs and more time consuming but better all round for the rider, team and sponsor so worth the time effort and money.

    I still hold it true from knowledge and experience that just because many can be swayed by money it doesn't make it so that ALL are so destined.

    I want a clean sport, amateur or professional.
    Most people seem to want this.
    Therefore that's what we should all strive for. It's not impossible just very hard.
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  • was going to say much the same. We have clearly got far too much time on our hands.
    I am by nature an optimist. I want to believe the best in people. I realise that not everything works out to the best but noone ever learns anything without making mistakes. It's how we recover and improve from these that makes us grow and develop.
    So we must keep trying and rebuilding.
    Nothing happens without belief and hope.
  • Oh, by the way, for the record i wrote what I hold to be true. I have enjoyed the debate but don't take lightly the subject matter as some have on another thread.
    I genuinely believe that DB has been naive and will try to correct his mistakes. BC will like Sky try and put measures in place to show they are trying to be "the best they can be" to use their phrase. Some will believe I am an innocent at large but that is what it takes to try and rebuild from the wreckage. Dreams and hopes with a steadfast resolve are the lifeblood of a healthy society. Without them there is only cynical reality and despair.
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    I think, though you have removed them, that you are the only person to use the term hero Andy. I refer to role models. If you lean towards a hero, not my thing, then I agree these two individuals might well fit that bill.
    Think we got your points before.
    Better audience for this on the sugar free plum fairy 10am ride thread.
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    you have a following Andy. Perhaps you are their "hero" :-)
    One is well versed and one is well parsed HSBD
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