haha.no-one can be responsible for them Andy. True trollers. I thought you would have got the verse and parse being a literary type.text me and I'll elaborate. understand you are through with this topic but there is mileage in looking on the positive side. Whatever ones personal opinion there is truth in that people in the public eye and those who have the respect of their racing peers have an opportunity to influence events for the good of all. It isn't hopeless and Sky and BC can turn it around.
enjoy the beer Andy. I don't "believe" I am being unrealistically hopeful. In order for one to enjoy being entertained people have to train, commit and aspire to win. The means of achieving that win are many and varied. They don't have to be corrupt or on drugs. For every up there is a down and that is life. My despair was in the main at the sheer stupidity of how the issue was handled. That they needed to handle it at all was a different issue. So ones hopes get dashed, so what. It doesn't mean you stop hoping. It's the same in running a business. It doesn't always go the way you want but you stick in there.DB and co. will do just that and rebuild. We can hope they learn from their mistakes. As I said before hope is central to any endeavour.
ok Andy. You widen the scope to say it's human nature whatever the sport. So it is. I love this sport and this is a cycling forum so I am only talking Sky and BC here. That's the whole point though. You seek to say the spectacle is trivial in seriousness. I allude to the point that even though the spectacle may be pointless in terms of human endeavour it still serves a purpose. People learn about how to apply themselves to achieve a goal. an incredibly valuable life skill. How they go about doing that says much about their character and determination, another affirming quality. What influences they have on their journey a measure of how they step up and accept the trials and tribulations of the challenge. More valuable life lessons. whatever the "trivial" pursuit the ways and means of getting to the finish line say as much or more about them than the activity they are engaged in. My gripe is about those in charge of the game and what they say and do. They have the same opportunity as the contestants to show their qualities. They now have an opportunity to change how they do things and therefore how they and their sport is seen. Without us, the spectators and critics of the process there is no commercial spectacle. No income and no industry so no future. That amateur idiots competing at local,club and national level, are using drugs to outperform their rivals is sad and pathetic.They don't even have the excuse of earning their living at it. The tide of opinion is swinging or in the balance and it is up to us to demonstrate we would rather they tried their hardest to race clean than acquiesce and let them carry on cheating To this end regardless of whether the cycle repeats itself or not, we owe it to ourselves and them to keep them on their toes and express our pleasure or disquiet. You have formed an opinion and see no point in trying to do anything, or so it seems,because they will just keep on doing it or something similar. But I am trying to point out that without them seeing and hearing that this is not the way we want it to be done and seen, they have no actual feedback and measure to evaluate their outcomes. (DB's performance related speak) We don't really have any choice if we want people to try their best but to keep on pointing out the right way ahead rather than the wrong way.
You keep making generalised assertions about others. An earlier one was that because you would be tempted by offers if attractive enough then everyone would be likewise. Because one is an optimist doesn't mean they wear "rose tinted spectacles". It just means that despite all the bad things happening around they are still prepared to be positive, proactive and seek to improve a negative to a positive. This in fact makes them a realist. A different type of realist to the one you suggest. Because one hopes for people to aspire towards an improved state doesn't make them unrealistic. If you take your "everything is going to hell in a handcart" approach "so there is no point in doing anything" then nothing ever improves. Anyone is free to walk away, but unless you try to make good what is bad nothing gets better. Discussing it makes others aware that it isn't good enough to turn a blind eye.
As long as that human nature fits your definition. Being optimistic isn't about make believe or being blind. Your vision relies on others making the running and you adjusting to what exists. Mine is about picking up what is broken and making whole. As long as people keep rebuilding you are free to roll along. I don't expect it just to get better. I ask people to make an effort to stop doing the wrong things and improve.
futility is trying to have a conversation with someone who wipes out their side of the argument. If you can't stand by your arguments for others to decide don't enter the discussion.
you may believe you are the font but others are free to draw their own conclusions. you may try to draw me into your generalisation. One thing is for certain. If you ever want people to believe you mean what you say they won't.
finally...that is better. Now leave it there so others can read it and learn.
I am happy any day discussing abstract, and metaphysics, and neuroscience.
I am concerned here with the visceral reality of young riders relating to what they perceive as reality. You can bring the full weight of academia into the argument but unless you translate that into tactile and cognitive reality they will see what they want to see and not what you say they should see.. Hope and belief in the outcomes as represented by their idols is a reality. It is this that pays the wages of the participants. They have a responsibility to see they keep as close to their purported aims and objectives by racing clean. We the spectators have a duty to keep them up to these standards.
of course they should Andy. I have never aspired to the hero, idol concept and much happier for it. However you are not taking into account human nature. Self starters and individuals tend to do their own thing but aren't the majority of people. A large number of people find it hard to visualise outcomes and get inspired by seeing an actual outcome to help them. Whether its how the house should look or what can be achieved by cycling or sprinting well. They are led to believe that if they do this,work this way, take this course and focus then they too can be like those they see succeeding. Often they don't need persuading they see it and aspire to it. All the logic,science and weight of history won't alter this human trait. Some WILL make the grade and get the rewards. MOST won't. That doesn't make it a bad thing. What is important is that the public make it clear they want as clean a sport as the organising bodies can make possible. If we make that crystal clear and withdraw support from a sponsors product that supports tainted athletes then that is a powerful financial incentive to do the right thing. As to your meaningful contribution to human society.....agree, but NOT with the idolising bit. I'm sure your theory on atrophying morals will also apply in that arena. If you see something patently wrong then highlighting it is your first port of call. trying to find a way to alter the wrong is the next avenue. Getting actively involved in informing and countering is the next level. You won't change the world much but you might make a little bit of it better.
Comments
understand you are through with this topic but there is mileage in looking on the positive side.
Whatever ones personal opinion there is truth in that people in the public eye and those who have the respect of their racing peers have an opportunity to influence events for the good of all.
It isn't hopeless and Sky and BC can turn it around.
So ones hopes get dashed, so what. It doesn't mean you stop hoping. It's the same in running a business. It doesn't always go the way you want but you stick in there.DB and co. will do just that and rebuild.
We can hope they learn from their mistakes. As I said before hope is central to any endeavour.
So it is. I love this sport and this is a cycling forum so I am only talking Sky and BC here.
That's the whole point though. You seek to say the spectacle is trivial in seriousness.
I allude to the point that even though the spectacle may be pointless in terms of human endeavour it still serves a purpose.
People learn about how to apply themselves to achieve a goal. an incredibly valuable life skill.
How they go about doing that says much about their character and determination, another affirming quality.
What influences they have on their journey a measure of how they step up and accept the trials and tribulations of the challenge. More valuable life lessons.
whatever the "trivial" pursuit the ways and means of getting to the finish line say as much or more about them than the activity they are engaged in.
My gripe is about those in charge of the game and what they say and do.
They have the same opportunity as the contestants to show their qualities.
They now have an opportunity to change how they do things and therefore how they and their sport is seen.
Without us, the spectators and critics of the process there is no commercial spectacle. No income and no industry so no future.
That amateur idiots competing at local,club and national level, are using drugs to outperform their rivals is sad and pathetic.They don't even have the excuse of earning their living at it.
The tide of opinion is swinging or in the balance and it is up to us to demonstrate we would rather they tried their hardest to race clean than acquiesce and let them carry on cheating To this end regardless of whether the cycle repeats itself or not, we owe it to ourselves and them to keep them on their toes and express our pleasure or disquiet.
You have formed an opinion and see no point in trying to do anything, or so it seems,because they will just keep on doing it or something similar.
But I am trying to point out that without them seeing and hearing that this is not the way we want it to be done and seen, they have no actual feedback and measure to evaluate their outcomes. (DB's performance related speak)
We don't really have any choice if we want people to try their best but to keep on pointing out the right way ahead rather than the wrong way.
An earlier one was that because you would be tempted by offers if attractive enough then everyone would be likewise.
Because one is an optimist doesn't mean they wear "rose tinted spectacles".
It just means that despite all the bad things happening around they are still prepared to be positive, proactive and seek to improve a negative to a positive.
This in fact makes them a realist. A different type of realist to the one you suggest. Because one hopes for people to aspire towards an improved state doesn't make them unrealistic. If you take your "everything is going to hell in a handcart" approach "so there is no point in doing anything" then nothing ever improves. Anyone is free to walk away, but unless you try to make good what is bad nothing gets better.
Discussing it makes others aware that it isn't good enough to turn a blind eye.
make mine a double Andy. CU tomorrow.
.
I am happy any day discussing abstract, and metaphysics, and neuroscience.
I am concerned here with the visceral reality of young riders relating to what they perceive as reality.
You can bring the full weight of academia into the argument but unless you translate that into tactile and cognitive reality they will see what they want to see and not what you say they should see..
Hope and belief in the outcomes as represented by their idols is a reality.
It is this that pays the wages of the participants.
They have a responsibility to see they keep as close to their purported aims and objectives by racing clean.
We the spectators have a duty to keep them up to these standards.
Self starters and individuals tend to do their own thing but aren't the majority of people.
A large number of people find it hard to visualise outcomes and get inspired by seeing an actual outcome to help them. Whether its how the house should look or what can be achieved by cycling or sprinting well.
They are led to believe that if they do this,work this way, take this course and focus then they too can be like those they see succeeding.
Often they don't need persuading they see it and aspire to it.
All the logic,science and weight of history won't alter this human trait.
Some WILL make the grade and get the rewards. MOST won't.
That doesn't make it a bad thing.
What is important is that the public make it clear they want as clean a sport as the organising bodies can make possible.
If we make that crystal clear and withdraw support from a sponsors product that supports tainted athletes then that is a powerful financial incentive to do the right thing.
As to your meaningful contribution to human society.....agree, but NOT with the idolising bit. I'm sure your theory on atrophying morals will also apply in that arena.
If you see something patently wrong then highlighting it is your first port of call.
trying to find a way to alter the wrong is the next avenue.
Getting actively involved in informing and countering is the next level.
You won't change the world much but you might make a little bit of it better.